Yes, Missoulapolis stills loves those Krazy Komments she finds on the Internets!
Here are just a few excerpts from a June 15 WSJ Room for Debate blog post called Student Debt, Fool’s Gold? And oh, the pride, the folly, the delusion, the remorse, and the harsh judgmentalism (!!!1!) that follow in (by now) in over 300 comments. It is definitely a good read (and even a chuckle or two if you enjoy someone bragging that he “recieved a great education.”).
First, a sampling of sad sacks.
I was a young widow with children. I worked two jobs, and finished undergraduate and graduate school. I was so proud of my accomplishments. It is now 15 years later, and still, I have NEVER gotten a full-time job. I have had part-time, temporary, and bouts of no jobs. I am now 50 years old, and owe more in student loans than what I borrowed 15 years ago. I am middle-aged, have no savings or assets, but I have my Ph.D.
You go, girl! I mean…Doctor.
I have approximately $100,000 in student loan debt, even after landing a 3 year prestigious fellowship that paid for tuition, living costs and research… this was for a PhD program that I eventually dropped out of due to the burdens of a growing family - I took a masters instead.
So a master’s degree is the booby prize now? Who’d a thunk.
The worst decision of my life was taking out loans to attend undergrad and grad school. Despite receiving a full-tuition scholarship for law school, my debt load is crushing. I live worse than high-school drop-outs I know, despite graduating with honors and having a full-time job. Student loans have ruined my life, as they have for tens of thousands of others. They leave that bit out of the brochures at the guidance counselor and student aid offices.
But you’ll be making all that money in the future, yes?
My wife and I inherited some money a while back and we decided to use it to pay off that long term debt. Thinking everything was on track with my 20-year loan, I soon found out about a year ago that my balance was now $85 more than what I originally borrowed so many years ago.
This one is by far the best:
During this same period, though, we had one child right out of school. This hamstrung my wife’s career focus in some ways, as we decided for her to stay home. She then decided to go into a field that required another bachelor’s, so she spent 3 years obtaining this second degree, but this time from a private school that saddled us with $55k in debt…
Making matters worse, we had our second child too soon after her graduation for my wife to establish herself in her field-most importantly, she never completed some essential training necessary to remain a viable candidate for future employment. That was two years ago. She is ready to re-enter the workforce, but employers are treating her as someone completely unqualified and she cannot find work…
One possible solution for this is more education. I am considering an executive MBA…but with a cost of $100k or so, we would be highly leveraged…
Yes, by all means get an another degree!
There are calls, of course, for government to Do Something!
We need a movement to demand affordable education that is federally funded and moreover, after graduation federally created jobs…as a recent global justice movement put it, “people over profits!”
…and the usual pieties:
As parents and society, we would be better off if our children and more people are college-educated. The challenge for federal and local governments is to make college much more affordable than it currently is. One way to achieve this is for citizens to pay more tax and channel the additional tax revenue to make public colleges and universities much more affordable for every high school student who wants to go to college. As citizen, we must make our choice between higher tax and affordable higher education.
You don’t mind paying more taxes, do you? It’s for such a worthy cause.
Finally, some common sense:
…if education is merely the means to meaningful skills that lead to work you will find satisfying, then there are plenty of truly “affordable” options that won’t require anyone to take on massive debt. But if you are trying to buy status by going to a school you can’t afford, then quit whining when the bill comes due. No one held a gun to your head and forced you to spend money you didn’t, and likely won’t ever, have. You made the
choice. Just because the system doesn’t give you what you want at a price you can afford, doesn’t mean it’s broken.
Buying status. Ouch. More tough love:
Parents - get your lazy kids to start studying mathematics and science, or get ready to enjoy their company in your home when they are 27. Why would someone take on tens of thousands in debt for a liberal arts masters degree? What a scam!
Some catcalls:
Look on the bright side all you debtors…..when you are old and gray (and still paying your loans since they are tied into the Treasury) you will still have fond memories of all that binge drinking you did, all those drugs you took, and all that sex you had. So stop whining and get another job.
A view from inside:
As a professor at a private university in the North East - it pains me each year to see students who really cannot afford to attend the school do so by leveraging their future salaries. There is an assumption that regardless of cost now- their jobs in the future will provide the income necessary to repay those loans and support a lifestyle that is also above average.
This has been going on for years. However, a new trend that is even more troubling is the percentage of students who then compound their undergraduate loans with masters level loans. Schools are not without blame; they push their graduate degrees because they are generally income generators.
And just how good is all this eddication?
I work for a professional services firm. We aspire to only hire the best and brightest - undergraduates with degrees in economics who achieved above a 3.6 GPA, MBA students from the top 20 schools, lawyers with technical expertise in business or tax law.
And guess what we have to do now?
We are offering REMEDIAL WRITING COURSES to our new employees. Our clever HR department calls it “integrating the new generation.”
LOL! Few commenters mention this option:
…it seems that most of you are saying it is beneath you to consider the military, even if it means no debt for college. I think the silence on this topic says much about our country, the people in it, and the ethics we hold dear. God help us!
Naturally, there is a great hue and cry to make student loan debt dischargeable in bankruptcy again. Well, except for one wet blanket with a good memory:
…in the mid-70’s and possibly the early 80’s there was blatant bankruptcy abuse in which many graduates, particularly doctors and lawyers were able to have all of their educational debts fully discharged under the bankruptcy code. Their (morally bankrupt) theory was that they hadn’t yet started to make much money so why not file bankruptcy. That way when they started making money they could keep it all for themselves rather than go to the trouble of paying back those pesky folks that lent them the money so they could become professionals. So…any of you that are unhappy about not being able to file bankruptcy in order to discharge your university debt can thank these folks for abusing the system so much they changed the rules.
Then, someone who has succeeded - gasp - sans degree!
I’m in sales & in a good year I can earn 90k-97k yet I don’t have a bachelors degree. The lack of degree only presents a problem if I change jobs. I’ve learned to not tell co-workers I don’t have a bachelors as they get really annoyed when they see I’m top biller for the month…
The bottom line is this:
I still hear people quoting Joseph Campbell, “Do what you love and the money will follow.” Ha. These people are not the ones who have to pay back student loans. I followed my interests into a dead end M.A. Welcome to the secretarial pool.
Heh. The lunch room is down the hall on the left…here is your time card…
I do think Congress should make the loans dischargeable again. Wouldn’t that be swell? Then, watch the student loan spigot dry up.
That will put an end to the Higher Ed bubble for awhile.
on Jun 24th, 2009 at 6:09 pm
Thanks for that Carol. I liked this …
“No one held a gun to your head and forced you to spend money you didn’t, and likely won’t ever, have.”
-
on Jun 24th, 2009 at 6:45 pm
Love it! This is one of those “soapbox” issues for me. So, ’scuse me while I clamber up…
First off, I get crazy when people whine about the cost of a college education. If you want to cut the costs - cut out all the remedial courses. If you can’t do college level work - tough - not college material. There was a time when a person had to QUALIFY! for college and if they couldn’t pass the entrance exams, there were rejection letters in the mailbox. Next, institutions can require courses to be self-sustaining. Can’t attract enough students to pay for the professors, classrooms, etc., dropped from the course catalogue.
The second component to my frustration is the way kids are sold on the high priced private schools. I think some of the most talented marketing people in the country have focused their attention on starry-eyed high school juniors, promising them all sorts of wonderfulness. Try being a parent of a good (not outstanding) student who is being courted by a fancy recruiter from a “cool” school. You can talk yourself blue about how a bachelor’s degree from Cool U won’t get you a dollar more on your first job than you’d get if the school on the diploma is a state college. In the real world, a bachelor’s degree only gets your resume read if you have no work experience or history - it doesn’t get you much more than that.
Probably the quickest way to turn this situation around would be to turn the loan spigot off - you’ve hit the nail on the head, Carol.
on Jun 24th, 2009 at 7:41 pm
Love the post, Carol! And Auntie Lib’s comment too.
Ain’t it grand to live in America where one gets to CHOOSE how much debt they want to incur. No gun to the head here. These people need to grow a set and face the fact that they perhaps didn’t necessarily make a bad decision but that THEIR choices come with baggage. Didn’t see the writing on the wall? Why not?
This reminds me of a vid I saw of Mike Rowe talking to the white collar folk in Silicon Valley and he notes how happy the blue collar guys and gals are with their lives and their work that he meets on his show especially in comparison to the white collar stressed out highly edumacated ones like in Silicon Valley…
on Jun 24th, 2009 at 11:16 pm
It certainly is a bubble. And guess who blew it up? Why, the same government that brought you the subprime mortgage and “affordable housing.” Only now, we have the subprime student and “affordable college.”
The only people who escaped being wiped out by the higher education bubble were the social engineers who decided that everyone ought to go to college. It was they who invented Affirmative Action, which ultimately flooded the colleges with women and minorities pumped up with phony high school grades and letters of recommendation. Where these social engineers obtained degrees in social engineering, I have no idea, but they all found very comfortable government jobs somehow.
So they stuffed the universities and colleges according to gender and racial quotas. Demand for classroom seats zoomed, and, surprise, the price for a seat went through the roof. Naturally, such a high price would have rationed the number of seats. But lack of money never halted a social engineering project! And, thus, the government cranked up its money machine to offer all-comers loans generously subsidized by the US taxpayer. And, of course, as with subprime house lending, the private sector lending sharks smelled blood in the subprime student pool.
Now every assistant county attorney is named Amber or Meagan. They started their high-powered legal careers at $29,500. But that is OK because they are ridding the world of white male sex perverts and wife beaters. And Deshawn is happily sorting mail down in the mailroom, happily because his bachelor’s degree is in communications.
The trouble is, none of those people can pay off their student loans within a normal lifespan. They are condemned to mediocre jobs and salaries forever because, and this is the best part, there are so many of them.
on Jun 25th, 2009 at 6:49 am
I never understand all the affirm action since there were plenty of women, at least, going through the public university system in Cali when I was a kid. I had a female doctor when I was about 14. How did that happen? She had to qualify and work hard, that’s all.
Public university in Cali was an astoundingly good deal, Texas not bad either.
on Jun 25th, 2009 at 9:45 am
“Now every assistant county attorney is named Amber or Meagan. ”
Heh.
And yet we’ll always need plumbers, electricians and that guy who knows how to hang doors so they actually swing open and closed without scraping the floor or the casing.
on Jun 25th, 2009 at 11:09 am
As is standard with this blog, I’m reading lots of snark and zero solutions. What’s implied here is that the people who don’t have the money to finance an education shouldn’t buy into student loans. So the solution, I’m guessing, is to keep their crummy low end jobs and, what, marry somebody with a lot of money? I think you said that once, Carol. Then, there are those who didn’t ask for handouts, but financed an education through the only means available to them. I empathize with their frustration, and I can’t see why you laugh at them now that they’re struggling to get by although they played the game by the rules.
on Jun 25th, 2009 at 11:28 am
Now, now geo, don’t you think even the family guy considering an “executive MBA” was just a little over the top? It’s become a fetish, an obsession with people, the solution to every problem - an advanced degree! The whole point is that the extra education is not rewarding the students with the higher incomes they expected, far from it.
The whole MBA madness…that’s another story in itself.
And I did too propose a solution, right at the end. Make the loans dischargeable again. It was the availability of EZ money, subsidies and govt guarantees that grossly distorted the cost in the first place. The financial aid offices need to come back down to earth.
Just as with the housing bubble, some day we’ll look back and be shaking our heads that so many people could be so foolish.
on Jun 25th, 2009 at 11:38 am
geo logic,
The military is a wonderful option for those seeking to advance their educations and cannot afford it. The Active Duty or Reserve M.G.I.B. will get you four years. Up to $40grand for active duty, $10grand for Reserve.
“So the solution, I’m guessing, is to keep their crummy low end jobs and, what, marry somebody with a lot of money?”
There is an assumption that the advanced degree prevents one from having to take a low-end job - did you read the letters? And there is an assumption that if one doesn’t have an advanced degree, they’re doomed for a crummy low-end job - did you read the letters?
on Jun 25th, 2009 at 12:22 pm
Carol:
I have never been to a female doctor, although I have fantasized about it quite a lot. But, seriously, if I had to see a female doctor, she would have to be over 50 before I would trust her, because, as you said, such women never got a free ride. They earned their status.
I know one of those women personally. I have watched her for 37 years as she rose from an hourly employee working the midnight shift to an upper-level corporate manager. And she did it with a worthless liberal arts degree in an male-dominated scientific industry.
PS: Did you know that some women’s groups are trying to lower the admission standards for B school? Most top-level MBA programs require the candidate to have five years of real-world business experience. A few require three years. But some women’s groups are complaining that the five-year requirement interferes with a woman’s plans for marriage and having children. They want women to go straight from undergraduate school into B school, grab an MBA, jump into a high-paying job, get married, quit, and have children before they turn 30.
///
Dana:
“And yet we’ll always need plumbers, electricians and that guy who knows how to hang doors so they actually swing open and closed without scraping the floor or the casing.”
Read about a guy who has no student loans and knows how to weld:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/24/business/24jobs.html?ref=global
As for the guy who hangs doors correctly, that would be me. I just spent the morning hanging two entryway doors. They work very nicely. The only problem I encountered was that the lockset cutout did not align properly with the striker cutout in the jamb. This was a manufacturing defect, and it was odd because the deadbolt cutout did in fact align with the doorjamb cutout. A little chisel work on the jamb fixed everything, however.
///
Geo Logic:
I did not hear anyone laughing. This is a pathetic situation: People who should not be in college are borrowing money to stay there. The situation is no different from the people who should not own a house. Both groups are the victims of ill-conceived government policies and their own stupidity.
on Jun 25th, 2009 at 1:20 pm
Max Bucks,
…about those freely swinging doors - sigh.
on Jun 25th, 2009 at 1:23 pm
Max, I confess. I LOL’d. The way I LOL when I read Ecclesiastes.
on Jun 25th, 2009 at 1:38 pm
I’m not saying that the lack of a degree equates a crummy low end job, - my little brother never went to college and makes probably five times what I do - but I’d assume that those of us who have crummy, low end jobs, would prefer better jobs. If we have a crummy, low end job despite our bachelor’s degree, then what’s the next step? I don’t think people are out of line for assuming that more education will earn them a better job, after all, that’s what we’ve been told our entire lives, right? I understand that the point is that people with advanced degrees aren’t earning enough money to pay back their loans, but when you’re poor, there aren’t many options to dig yourself out of poverty. One such option - until now - has been school. And unfortunately, there’s no other way to pay the exorbitant costs of education other than student loans. My point is that it’s not fair to poke fun at people who are trying to better themselves through education. After all, that’s the only option many of them have. The military is not a bad option, but most of us are aged out.
Look Carol, this is from your post:
“One possible solution for this is more education. I am considering an executive MBA…but with a cost of $100k or so, we would be highly leveraged…”
Yes, by all means get an another degree!
What the hell else is this guy supposed to do? You don’t offer a solution, you just snark at him. And that’s not fair to him. The problem with conservative ideology is that it assumes that everyone who is poor either chose to be that way, or is too lazy to do something about it. This guy is proof that even if you play by the rules, it won’t necessarily get you anywhere. And instead of empathizing with his struggle, you make fun of him. I can’t respect that.
on Jun 25th, 2009 at 3:46 pm
Geo Logic:
The solution is simple: Do something the market values.
That may or may not entail more education or retraining. But before you do anything, make a survey of what jobs pay well. Whether you see yourself doing that kind of work is irrelevant. Never let your job define you. This is about making money with as little effort as possible. This is not about what kind of person you are deep down inside.
Once you have identified the solid, well paying jobs, honestly consider whether you are physically and mentally capable of performing the work. If you think you have the brawn or the brains or both that are needed, then go for it. Locate people in the trade or profession and ask them what you have to do to get a job. If they say you need two years of some college curriculum, or you have to take night classes at a vo-tech school, then you have to do it. If they say you must have experience, then ask them how you can get some on-the-job training. Most people who have been working in a particular field for some time are more than happy to help someone break into that field. But you cannot be shy about asking for help.
I have eight years of college and three degrees, all with highest honors. I am a Phi Kappa Phi and a Phi Alpha Theta. But I have never earned a penny working in any field even remotely related to my college training. I have done everything from pouring concrete and fixing automobiles to poultry farming, legal research, software consulting, and investment analysis. Whatever the market valued at the moment.
Here is what I know about my own college education: It was a personal indulgence that greatly increased my self-esteem while greatly decreasing my bank account.
Here is what I know about my own work experience: Earning wages leads nowhere, unless the wages are invested.
on Jun 25th, 2009 at 3:46 pm
Geo, I realize you specifically addressed your comment above to Carol, but forgive me for interloping but if I don’t, my head will explode.
Let’s look at the entire quote in it’s proper context and not cherry pick:
During this same period, though, we had one child right out of school.
Who made this decision? If it was an *accident*, then that is what it is. A child. Deal.
This hamstrung my wife’s career focus in some ways, as we decided for her to stay home.
Hooray for a SAHM! It will be of far greater value in the long run to that child that mommy focused on him/her rather than popping the child into daycare and stayed focus on her career. But that is the sacrifice that parenting demands.
She then decided to go into a field that required another bachelor’s, so she spent 3 years obtaining this second degree, but this time from a private school that saddled us with $55k in debt…
Why did she decide to do this? She willfully and freely chose to incur more debt because she wanted to go into another field. Three more years, not from a state school but rather a private school. Why? They were saddled with $55k because someone chose to pursue a new career, chose to attend a private college, and as an educated person, we can assume she looked into the debt cost of such an endeavor.
Making matters worse, we had our second child too soon after her graduation for my wife to establish herself in her field-most importantly, she never completed some essential training necessary to remain a viable candidate for future employment.
Again, what’s with having another child when they were not ready? Who made that decision? Another accident? These are serious, serious decisions (to have another child) that ideally, should be well thought out and finances and life-plans considered. This sounds like it was a random occurrence that just ‘happened to them’.
That was two years ago. She is ready to re-enter the workforce, but employers are treating her as someone completely unqualified and she cannot find work…
Where is she looking for work? Is she in a field that is oversaturated? Does she have a lib arts degree that is basically useless (but she *really* loves the 19th century English writers). Did she consider the fields that are wide open and where the demands are consistently plenty? Perhaps she can set her sites lower and/or differently, get established in another position, making less money perhaps but as her children age, get her training at nights?
One possible solution for this is more education. I am considering an executive MBA…but with a cost of $100k or so, we would be highly leveraged…
Again, this is so wishy-washy: we’re already in massive debt but I think we should go even more massively into debt to take a chance on *maybe* getting a higher paying position.
Meh.
Do these people actually think and consider consequences and most importantly, unintended consequences? The problem I have is that there is an underlying whiff of expectation on their part that life should have worked out differently and more conveniently for them because they are *special*. Wake up. Life doesn’t work like that but for a very, very small percentage. Most of us stumble into professions, change several times along the way, live on one salary to raise our kids, eat beans and rice and the only vacations we ever take involve a tent, and happily drive clunkers because we know what we’re creating and nurturing inside our four walls is what is far more valuable and meaningful than having completed our degrees when we *wanted* to.
The self-indulgence is mind boggling.
on Jun 25th, 2009 at 4:23 pm
Whoa, what she said!
on Jun 25th, 2009 at 4:29 pm
I find that there are way too many younger workers that feel entitled lately- educated or not. They’d like a good position, but don’t produce when they come to work (if they don’t call in sick). Could you just mail them a paycheck?
on Jun 25th, 2009 at 4:42 pm
“Whoa, what she said!”
Yeah, especially that part about self-indulgence.
After reading Dana’s comment, I suddenly realized this nonsense about mom’s career can get pretty expensive when mom is ditzy.
The guy would be better off buying her a pink Corvette.
on Jun 26th, 2009 at 9:41 am
i understand that they made some poor choices but there are different levels of poor choices. it’s not like the guy decided to market snake oil or sell rocks. The guy - and his wife - went to college, which is usually a good option. Max, I hear what you’re saying about education being an indulgence but think back to when you first went to school, I doubt you did it to puff up your ego. I did it - and I imagine most of you would say the same thing - because the whole time I was growing up, college was held before me as the end all, be all single doorway to success. Granted, I too have realized that I pissed away four years of my life in school but I was lucky enough to have some help going through so I’m not saddled with student loans. If not for the help, I might be in the same position as this guy. Therefore, I realize it would be extremely hypocritical of me to wag my finger at him.
And to make matters worse. Now, he’s married, with kids, and both he and his wife are struggling with debt - not because they bought a house they couldn’t afford - but because they tried to better themselves the only way they saw fit. What I’ve heard so far is that he shouldn’t be where he is. Maybe that’s true, but it doesn’t help him out of his current mess. Since none of you have offered the guy a solution, I’ll put it to you this way. If you were in his position - regardless of his past mistakes - what would you do?
We’re getting off topic here, so I’ll try to bring us back to the original discussion. My point was, it’s not fair to poke fun at these people. They may have made some mistakes, yes, but I think it would be hypocritical of any of us to say we’re incapable of making the same sort of mistakes. Have some empathy. That’s all I’m asking.
on Jun 26th, 2009 at 11:23 am
Geo, you’re right - they made some bad decisions. What is troubling, though, is that they are *still* considering making bad decisions:
“One possible solution for this is more education. I am considering an executive MBA…but with a cost of $100k or so, we would be highly leveraged…”
They. Haven’t. Learned. From. Their. Mistakes.
This is a critical part of growing up. And they seem to be missing it. It may sound harsh but life itself is harsh and they really need to wake up. Fast.
Now I admit we have limited information in these small quotes, and there may be circumstances not expressed that would flesh this out so that their decisions don’t appear as thoughtless and wishy-washy. That said, and given what we have here to go by, these people seem not given to introspection, common sense and are without hindsight.
I have empathy. I’ve got lots of empathy but for people like this couple, empathy and sympathy can be the worst thing for them. It’s far too easy to turn it inward and that ugly most unbecoming and definitely weakening woe-is-me quality manifests itself.
What would I do? Here’s what I *have done* in my adult life when newly married, starting out in careers and facing a child unexpectedly early: we got a smaller, cheaper place to live. We sold a car and drove one clunker. We cut out going to dinner, going to lunch, buying Christmas trees, vacations (except camping. In a tent.), we ate a lot of rice, P & J sandwiches, etc. We said No to the myriad of Wants we had, and said Yes only to those things we Needed. Those are the practicals. That is what the lean time demands.
When we got financially established, careers moving, etc., we then opted for me to stay at home with my child and homeschool her. We had already LEARNED a thrifty lifestyle, so even though we were no longer in the poorhouse, we knew how to live like we were, and comfortably so. Because in the long run, living frugally on one salary so I could be home with our child was the best and greatest thing we ever chose to do. We might be very comfortable now but those lean years were the growing years, the good years, and the years that forged us into strong people.
This couple has a great opportunity to live through their tough stuff and come out a stronger and more enduring couple and individuals. Instead of looking to furthering their debt to get there (which won’t work), they should look at the practicals:
1) What jobs in their area are in demand? What field is over saturated, what field is wide open.
2) Are their vocational training classes at your local community college, certificate programs to fill jobs that are in demand, etc?
ARE THEY WILLING TO GO BLUE COLLAR, IF NECESSARY?
3) Can they cut down on lifestyle: smaller house, less expensive locale, luxuries, superfluous, lattes, lunch out, etc?
The bottom line is: What are they willing to sacrifice to better their lives? From the small quotes, I don’t see a heckuva lot…
on Jun 26th, 2009 at 11:33 am
Yes laughter is cruel. Where is our Juvenal? We need some serious satire about this phenomenon and housing bubble too.
I think there is far too much sanctimony about higher education in general. Someone says he’s in school and gets an automatic halo. The assumptions that it’s all good are rarely if ever questioned.
Does anyone remember the term “professional student”? You don’t hear that one much anymore, even though it is more apt than ever.
on Jun 26th, 2009 at 1:10 pm
Dana, I hear what you’re saying. But we don’t know whether the couple mentioned above have already made the cuts you mentioned. If they haven’t, then you’re right. They definitely should. I’m not sure I agree with your assessment of their situation, but I respect the fact you’ve walked around in their shoes a bit and thought their situation through. I think we can agree to disagree here.
on Jun 26th, 2009 at 2:25 pm
Geo Logic:
I am not sure if you are complaining about the interaction of our economic and educational systems, or if you are complaining about modern life itself. I will confine my comments to the former problem, since I do not put on my guru hat until Saturday night down at the Silver Dollar Saloon.
I have always thought our higher education system was an absurdity, not so much for the education it offered, because I think it is the best educational system in the world, but rather because if offered no guarantee of a livelihood after graduation.
In investing, we call this Blue Sky. In return for an investment of, say, several thousand dollars, someone offers you a piece of blue sky. Will you take it? Probably not. But that is what you do when you invest in a college education. You are spending your time and money in the belief that you will be rewarded with a good job. You look around and see that most people with a college education have good jobs, so you naturally assume you will get one, too. But there is no guarantee that you will get a good job. Indeed, there is no guarantee that you will get any job at all.
That is an absurity. No investor in the world would assume such a risk. Yet, college-bound high school students and their parents do it all the time. And, as we have seen in this discussion, many people who were burned on their initial college investment actually go back to college and get burned again.
Now, if you think the universities who are selling this blue-sky product are making a large profit with no risk of a warrantee claim, consider the average capitalist dog running a big company: He gets the benefit of picking and choosing among a vast pool of educated workers without investing a cent in their education. He has taken no risk whatsoever. It was all on the worker.
That is the way I see the interaction of our economic and educational systems. It is an absurdity, and, as such, it represents a gross waste of material and human resources.
To avoid such waste, a system of contractual obligations could be implemented, wherein the prospective college student and the prospective employer agree beforehand what will happen upon graduation. For example, if the student enrolls in a certain degree program and achieves a satisfactory GPA and successfully completes a summer internship, etc., etc., then the company promises to hire the student for a particular job. All manner of inducements and penalties could be included in the contract, and each contract, of course, could be unique to the student and company involved.
Students entering college without a company contract in hand would be on their own. They would assume the entire risk of wasting their money on a college education that might only result in unemployment, which would be a situation essentially no different from that which exists today.
on Jun 26th, 2009 at 10:17 pm
Max Bucks, I find your comments quite interesting and insightful. And what a unique proposition re employers and college students… it’ll never fly of course because it seems we’ve already secured the myth of a college education and an advanced degree. In and of itself, it’s innocuous and may or may not open doors but the meaning we give it and the way we define ourselves by it is unbelievable. It’s the cult of education.
I work in a semi-urban public school district where perhaps 1/2 of the student population may end up at a community college (and that’s being generous) and very few will get a 4 year degree. In part, it’s cultural - certain ethnic groups do not place the same value or esteem on education that we do but rather see it as an unnecessary luxury. Work is what matters. It puts bread on the table. Anyway, instead of pushing vocational training as the obvious choice for most of these kids, the district (per the state) is bound and determined to push college as the most viable (read: *only*) choice. The schools’ slogans are “Where Will You Be Going to College?” because the assumption is, they will all be going.
Ridiculous.
on Jun 27th, 2009 at 7:14 am
OMG, how awful to insist like that! The assumption that Everyone Must Attend College was already bad enough, without making an express campaign of it.
One thing I’ve noticed, however, is that some young people without degrees can be paranoid about it, assume they’re not getting ahead because of it and make their own situation worse. They should be like that salesman and keep mum, not whine to coworkers that they’re not being promoted because they don’t have degree, and that so-and-so with a degree isn’t any better than me blah blah. That’s not always the case, especially at smaller tech companies.
I know it’s become a lazy screening device at big firms but at my company, at least, there are careers open to talent. The president never got a degree but had a good Navy technical education. He’s focused, persistent, insists on figuring out how everything works, and stays cool under stress. Plus, highly compensated.
on Jun 27th, 2009 at 1:23 pm
Carol, I think it’s an ‘if we build it, they will come’ mentality. Wishful thinking and perhaps an unintended judgment on blue collar workers and/or the lack of admitting that (as you example above w/the president of your company) an advanced degree is not the only way to find success in the workforce. However, as more companies paper screen out those w/out degrees, it will become more difficult to advance without higher education under the belt but still not impossible.
By assuming everyone will go to college is certainly setting up a wide swath of our school population for failure. Why even try? There are also a great number of those in my work demographic that have a load of cultural crap to overcome and few are motivated to - rather the will to overcome has been exceeded by an expectation that they will somehow be taken care of - because they’re that special…
Unrealistic on all sides.
on Jun 27th, 2009 at 3:16 pm
What a fascinating discussion. I doubt I can add any insight, only share with you my ever-increasing panic over tuition costs as my 8 year old develops good study skills and my 5 year old is teaching himself subtraction.
Texas tuition when I was in school? There was a big hubbub when it ramped up to $12 a credit hour at the University of Texas. Today, tuition payers won’t get away with less than $16,000 a year at a state school.
Dana, I marvel at the hard work you and your husband put yourselves through in your younger years. It sounds like he was frugal like you. Hats off to both of you!
on Jun 30th, 2009 at 5:01 am
I think the main point of the entire exercise is that most graduates of UNIVERSITY these days can’t flipping write a proper letter. They borrowed their future for a piece of crap paper and now get irate that they don’t have a job in their dream industry.
The other thing, no one has mentioned it, is - why, exactly, are they unable to pay down their student debt? Do they have a nice car? Do they also have a flat screen TV? Ask. I’ll bet you a penny they are living beyond their means in precisely the same way they educated themselves beyond their means.
on Jul 1st, 2009 at 8:56 pm
I think there’s something very basic missing here. Most people don’t belong in college - it’s not for everyone. But we have gravitated that way as manufacturing and technical jobs have been taken away from us. There was a time when a high school graduate could to to work for a refinery or the phone company, or even a meat packer, join a union, and make a decent life, even own a camper and a pickup.
But they took that all away from us. AT&T disassembled and outsourced, meat packing centralized and went to illegals, and unions were mostly crushed. People leave high school now with no prospects, and are siren-songed by the notion that a few more years of school will secure their future. But they don’t really achieve anything in school, since they aren’t really qualified to be there anyway, and reality sinks in. No way to make a living. So they make do, find a job, and if they are clever, maybe even have some success. But this is America - most people are doing things they don’t like doing, earning less than they think they are worth, and are chained to their jobs by health insurance. We are a very unhappy people.
We are doing something (many things) wrong, but by god don’t interfere with the market! Or free trade. What nonsense. We can do anything we want if it makes our lives better.
The answer? Simple - even a college graduate can understand it. Protect our economy from low-pay overseas jobs. Since most people everywhere are 100 IQ or so and not about to set the world on fire, the best thing we can do for them is give them a job. They can produce and contribute, and we can all share a little bit in our prosperity, none too rich, none too poor.
Max - oh never mind. I always look bad when I attack you. But I know you.
on Jul 1st, 2009 at 8:57 pm
BTW Carole, I forgot to say, good job.
on Jul 16th, 2009 at 4:34 pm
Please, oh please, people, do not join the military to get an education. You are basically committing yourself to killing Middle Eastern civilians to get a cheaper college education. Sick.
Agree that college costs are high because of government pumping money into the loan business. Same with health care and many other areas. High taxes, a lot due to trillion a year empire and foreign occupations are killing us as well.
We need smaller government, in ALL areas. You can’t be pro-military and call for smaller government. it is an oxymoron. But the GOP leadership and all the neo-con blood thirsties just toodle down the road, carping about liberty loving people trying to spoil their “party”. the Montana GOP stinks to high heaven but they being the skunks don’t know it stinks.